Tuesday, September 29, 2009
The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock
After you have read and annotated all of T. S. Eliot's "The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock," reread the translation (in the footnotes) of the epigraph. Considering what we read in "Tradition and the Individual Talent," what do you think of Eliot's choice of epigraph? Why the choice to allude to an epic about a journey through hell? How do you think form and content work together in this poem? Your response should refer to specific lines or words in both the poem and the epigraph and to what the commenters before you say. Remember this is a conversation...
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Ah, so I am the first to post this time? Very well, I'll start off by saying that to be honest, I didn't actually annotate very well at all. Sure there are many arrows all over the place, but none of them lead to anywhere - they are dead ends upon which my brain has noted interesting scenery, yet then lamented that there was nothing to be found at the end. Thus, I believe that we should start by talking about what each individual passage had to say to the overall poem.
ReplyDeleteFor example, the verse that stuck out to me most in the poem was the verse about yellow smoke (it is the only one with many completed arrows). Here, I see the word "yellow" be given a significance. What this significance is has yet to be seen but as of now I have determined that Eliot may have used "yellow" in a cautionary sense and a psychologically calming sense (yellow is the most psychologically "happy" color).
Further,the idea of smoke seemed to be illustrated as a weapon against mankind, like a feral cat about to pounce - "slipped by the terrace, made a sudden leap.../Curled once about the house and fell asleep". Smoke, out of all things, appeared to be chosen because of the connotations of blindness and danger of fire that almost certainly preceded it (the words "soot", "chimney", etc. also helped to create this mood).
This idea of invading yellow smoke rubbing up against all things human, therefore, seems to be a warning (yellow) of the blindness (smoke) and danger (fire) that the human race is in and that attack and destruction("sudden leap") may come at any time from anywhere, perhaps even in the form of something as innocent as a feline ("rubbing", "muzzle", "licking", Ring Ling). This, in turn, coincides with the idea of Dante's Inferno being used - an epic tale of that gives us the famous line that is inscribed upon the Gates of Hell, "Abandon all hope, ye who enter here".
But of course, that was just one kid's ramblings about a poem he doesn't understand. I'm certain that I must have missed something along the way. What do you all think?
Before I began, I found it necessary to revisit "Tradition and the Individual Talent" and our blog on the topic to refresh my memory. While we covered many aspects of the essay, I am going to focus on a (the) major point. To quote Eric's quote our first discussion on T.S. Eliot's "Tradition and the Individual Talent", "writing should be an infusion of the new into the old, lending new life to the hobbling of antiquity." As such, it is evident, that by refering to Dante's Inferno, Eliot is adding aspects of that work to his poem. Of course, that begs the question, why add aspects of Dante's Inferno, an epic about a journey through hell to his poem?
ReplyDeleteTo answer that question, it is necessary to analyze the content and form of the poem. It was very difficult for me, when reading this poem, to not use outside sources to assist me in my understanding of the poem, for my brain really doesn't want to do work right now. But for you, Parrish, I abstained, so don't be suprised if my points are abstract or flat out wrong. That being said, the poem was about two 'people' walking through a city at night. They visit a room where yellow smoke curls about in the air, then flows outside where it dissipates. There is plenty of time for questions and decisions and criticism, before toast and tea. The narrator is omniscient, he knows all. Yet, he questions his resolve to announce his rebirth, though it would be worth it. For, he is not a lord, but a minor character, the fool.
As for the form, the word choice is stark and gloomy. There are depressing phrases, images of hell. The setting is the "half-deserted streets" (Eliot 4)of a bad section of town. The word choice casts a hellish atmosphere over the piece; words like tedious, insidious, fog, soot, murder fill the piece. And, most interestingly to me, there are phrases which imply the narrator to be inhuman, most notablt the last line, "till human voices wake us, and we drown." The reference to human voices rather than just voices shows a distinction between the narrator and the voices. The two are dissimilar. This is reinforced by earlier imagery, the narrator says "I should have been a pair of ragged claws scuttling across the floors of silent seas" (73-74). These two together make the narrator seem to be the spawn of the devil, damned.
That characterization relates directly to the excerpt from Dante's Inferno, where the speaker is a damned man, to forever burn in hell, for "never from this abyss/has anyone ever returned alive." As such, I believe that by choosing to allude to Dante's Inferno, Eliot intends to show the hopelessness of an outcast. For, the damned are just the outcasts of the earth, just as the narrator is outcast by the society (as seen through critixisms of his appearance). Once seperated from the whole, it is all but impossible to return. At least, that is what the traditional view would be, as is shown in Dante's Inferno. However, though the character is afraid to, it is possible "to say: "I am Lazarus, come from the dead"" (94). Though the road is a long one, outcasts can return home. This relates back to the reason for choosing an epic through hell as the epigraph. Epics, like rejoining society, take a long time, and the usage of hell shows the pain involved in both, and how the people doing both are "almost, at times, the Fool" (119).
ReplyDeleteIn summation, the inclusion of the epigraph expands on the form of the poem to shed new light on what is happening. It shows the legnth and arduous nature of that ordeal. However, Eliot changes it by allowing for a rebirth, a return to humanity.
George, just to let you know i am just as confused about this poem as you are.
ReplyDeleteBut,
To answer ms. Parrish's posed questions, i would like to begin by saying that I interpreted Eliot's choice of the Epigraph and his poem alluding to an epic journey through hell symbolizing and expressing the journey of love with all of its hardships and difficulties. The poem is a "lovesong" by a man (Prufrock) to his love, and the writing encompasses the ideas of pain and confusion which can often be associated with love. The poem begins, "Streets that follow like a tedious argument of insidious intent to lead you to an overwhelming question...oh, do not ask, "what is it?" let us go and make our visit" This idea of a harmfully spreading intention, i interpreted to be love. Perhaps, a fear of confessing ones love to another person.
As George said, he interpreted the yellow fog and smoke as caution to danger, hell. I agree, George, but as well as alluding to hell and taking caution of hell, it also suggests the caution and confusion that comes along with love. As you said, George, yellow is a "happy" color, and love is a happy thing, but also something that should be taken and given with caution.
I interpreted that Eliot is suggesting that when one person confesses their love to another, an enormous risk and chance is being taken because it is uncertain whether or not the other individual will love you back. As the epigraph says, "if i thought my answer were given to anyone who would ever return to the world, this flame would stand still without moving any further." I related this to the idea of caution and confusion in love by thinking about how in life, if risks are not taken in love, no love can form or evolve just as the flame would not move or grow.
overall, i felt that this poem was alluding to love, and the journey of love in comparison to hell and its challenges.
I feel that George is spot on with his interpretation of the yellow smoke a warning sign. It is interesting to note, however, that the smoke doesn't stay around for long, but rather it "curled once about the house, and fell asleep" (22). The warning sign was ignored, without thought to the consequence, and soon forgotten.
ReplyDeleteAnna is onto something with the love thing (duh, it's in the title of the poem). People are more cautious (yellow) around people they love (yellow) because they are worried about how said person will interpret their actions.
ReplyDeleteTaylor-Agreed, so maybe Eliot is suggesting that we must take caution in love, but after we realize what we are getting ourselves into with love, to let it take over and embrace it despite the caution our instincts suggest we should take. could Eliot be suggesting that hesitation in love should only be temporary?
ReplyDeleteExactly what i was thinking Taylor! and to clarify what i then said, we are cautious around those we love temporarily, but once the love is full on and strong it is easy to eliminate that caution and be able to be oneself because a trust has been built, the smoke eliminating.
ReplyDeleteWell George and Anna, when it comes to your understanding of the poem, (or lack there of), I suppose that that would make three of us. I suppose that the markings on my poem are very similar to those on yours, various question marks, zigzagging lines and arrows all pointing to each other. In addition, in a weirdly convenient fashion, all of my ideas and excited writings are centered around the very stanza you highlighted in your post.
ReplyDeleteI too, found it very interesting that T.S. Eliot used two sets of contrasting words to highlight his points in lines 15-16. At first I simply underlined these as “notable”, but on further thought I realized that they were much more then this. To me the yellow symbolized the same brightness that was shown in the 2nd line of the poem. Herein lies where things start to get a little fuzzy. To me, the second line of the poem symbolizes a horizon, the notion of being “spread out” has me thinking of a horizontal line or something of that nature. At the same time though, it has me pondering whether the “evening” holds any sun at all because it could simply be talking about a blanket of stars. The haze that is presented in the second line, to me is what is carried over into the 16th and 17th lines.
This notion of a yellow fog, or yellow smoke could be a broader subject of what is or is not seen. Yellow to me is the brightest color, hence why we all color our suns and light bulbs with yellow crayons. However, at the same time, fog and smoke are two things that are very hard to see through. I guess what I am asking is, which overpowers which? Is it the bright sun, or the blanket of stars? Is it the color yellow, or is it the smoke that accompanies it? And yes, I understand that I did not answer a single one of the blog questions, this will be dealt with in a later post.
George you mentioned the caution in the "yellow" of the smoke and fog, and pointed out the feline characteristics found in stanzas four and five. I believe within the feline stanzas lies caution as well, for example line 17 "Licked its tongue into the corners of the evening", the caution taken in "licking" only the corners of the evening alludes to uncertainty Anna mentioned. Uncertainty is alluded to throughout the poem, in the constant questions being posed at the end of most stanzas. If perhaps the main objective is love then i agree Anna that the man writing the love song (Prufrock) is reiterating the caution one must take in love, and the uncertainty to expect in love.
ReplyDeleteWhen Eliot repeats that "there will be time" time for questioning and hesitation, but during her repetition time begins to pass by, and Prufrock's hair begins to "bald". I think that Eliot was trying to show that perhaps you can take the time to hesitate and question but really time passes by, the best line to sum her statement up are 47-48 "In a minute there is time For decisions and revisions which in a minute will reverse", i interpreted this as one moment you will have the time to question and think over your actions but just as soon the time will be gone, or the moment passed.
I'm not sure if any of my interpretations are really accurate considering i too, as well as Anna and George was a little confused with my initial reading...
Molly, i got very similar notions to yours with the uncertainty and whatnot as i "blogged" above. This uncertainty can also be seen in lines 68-69. "And how should I presume? / And how should I begin?" I suppose that these are pretty good tell-tale signs of uncertainty.
ReplyDeleteOh I'm so glad I wasn't the first one to post this time! So with my concussion and memory loss and whatever, I may have interpreted this completely wrong (sorry), but I'll try to make some kind of sense here. And I'm JUST as lost as you all are, if not more.
ReplyDeleteAs Taylor mentioned, the epigraph is from Dante's epic poem "Inferno" in which she tells about her personal journey through the 9 levels of Hell. The word "Inferno" demonstrates that there is a recognition and/or rejection of a sin, and it's almost an acknowledgment that when you dies (if you've committed a sin), you will go straight to the fire-filled abyss of Hell. I thought that Eliot was trying to demonstrate that love is full of sins, and that living through life will only end up in a life-after-death in Hell. I definitely agree with what Anna said, that love is full of risks, which Eliot clearly alludes to when he writes, "There will be time, there will be time/To prepare a face to meet the faces that you meet;
There will be time to murder and create" (Eliot 1). I thought that this suggested that the narrator (Prufrock) is somewhat ready to take on the challenges of love, but at the same time, he is clearly afraid of what will happen to him if he takes to large of a risk. I don't know if I totally made this up, but I also thought that there were quite a few references to Hell throughout the poem, and maybe that's suggesting that love is a living Hell at times. I thought that he was referencing growing old when and getting closer to Hell when he says "Do I dare?/Time to turn back and descend the stair/With a bald spot in the middle of my hair-" the stairs could perhaps represent the stairs leading down to Hell, a result of sinning while experiencing a love. I think it was Anna before who said that once you become comfortable with a person that you love, you are more like yourself around them--so maybe the sin that is in the poem is the time wasted and problems experienced while in love? I'm sort of just rambling right now, I'm not really sure if this makes any sense at all...
I keep thinking of something to write and then by the time I get back down to the box I forget... it's such a problem. Anyways, I do remember that I wanted to comment on the smoke vs. fog that Greg mentioned-- I agree that yellow is a bright color=the sun, whereas the smoke is dark=Hell. In this there is a really big contrast; perhaps the yellow is representing happiness and the smoke is representing misfortune.
ReplyDeleteThe stanza that I keep coming back to though isn't one that has been mentioned- it's the one following the stanza that George mentioned in his first post. Eliot writes, "There will be time/To prepare a face to meet the faces that you meet.../And for a hundred visions and revisions" (1-2). For some reason this made me think of John Edwards sermon "Sinners" (obviously because of the reference to Hell), but it was more the time factor that reminded me of this. Edwards encouraged his congregation to begin anew, and stop sinning; Eliot writes that there is time to revise, to start over. Just something to consider.
I like how this blog is going--seems more like a conversation than the other ones have. And, I think even though many of you are saying you are confused, you're also picking up on important lines, symbols and themes in the poem. Even if you are confused, you are confused about important things.
ReplyDeleteThat being said, here are my comments so far (for either those of you who have already posted to reconsider, or for those of you wondering if you dare [to eat a peach? to comment on the AP blog?], here are some thoughts to consider:
Taylor says: "The reference to human voices rather than just voices shows a distinction between the narrator and the voices. The two are dissimilar." So who/what is the speaker of this poem? A lobster? (But, seriously, what does that mean that he is distinct from these human voices? What else supports that idea in the poem?)
Anna says: "I agree, George, but as well as alluding to hell and taking caution of hell, it also suggests the caution and confusion that comes along with love. As you said, George, yellow is a "happy" color, and love is a happy thing, but also something that should be taken and given with caution." Anna (and George)... think about not just the color yellow by itself but yellow SMOKE. What does that connote?
I think already the comments are focusing on some interesting and important ideas--what it means that this poem is a "Love Song," who/what these human voices are and how they are different from the other voices (that have not woken and drowned the spaker), allusions to hell (Dante is a man, by the way), the importance of time in the poem... I"m excited to see what everyone else has to say.
Before responding, I have to say that I actually really like this poem (even though I generally don't like poetry).
ReplyDeleteFirst off, aside from being perceived as a "happy color," yellow is also often associated with cowardice. Taylor touched on his fact when he said that, "people are more cautious (yellow) around people they love (yellow)." One thing I never really saw in the reading though was this idea of love that you guys have been talking about. Love is in the title of the poem, but I never recognized anything in the poem that had to do with love, so I know that some of my interpretation must be confused.
One thing that's interesting about the introduction of this yellow smoke is that it also triggers a significant change in the narration of the poem. At the beginning. Eliot refers to another person (this person could might be the one he loves), and uses such forms of narration as "us" and "you and I;" however, after the occurrence of yellow smoke, the narrations just switches to the first person for the rest of the poem, and Eliot seems to have lost the confidence he previously had with the unidentified person. He repeatedly says at the beginning, "let us go," showing his eagerness to move on with either their lives or their relationship (I don't know what), but after the yellow smoke appears he becomes much more contemplative and enters a state of uncertainty. If the yellow smoke does indeed have the cowardly connotation I suggested, it could be that that is what's responsible for the significant change within Eliot; that the yellow smoke represents this form of cowardice within him that prevents him from going onward. This is especially felt with the way in which the smoke is presented as having a tongue that licks into "the corners of the evening." I feel as if this tongue is wrapping itself around Eliot and holding him down.
I also feel that the word, "evening" is important, for evening is what comes just before night. And what word would we normally associate with hell? Certainly not day; night. The presence of this very evening being slowly taken over by the tongue of the yellow smoke shows that there's an opportunity just over the horizon that is slowly disappearing. What the opportunity is for, we don't know, but we do know it's causing Eliot to contemplate his future. Again, I feel that it's important to acknowledge this state of uncertainty he's in, for I also feel that the epigraph promotes this same feeling. Guido de Montefeltro sums up the epigraph by saying, "if what I fear is true,/without fear of infamy i answer you," in response to how he's heard that no one returns alive from hell. Since no one from hell can provide him with insight on what future awaits Dante, Dante would also be left in a state of uncertainty that is similar to what Eliot is feeling. Eliot has no idea what's waiting for him if he ventures out into the unknown, and that seems to be why he can't come to a decision.
Also, what do you guys think about the passage, "In the room the women come and go talking of Michelangelo." I don't have the slightest idea of what the significance of this sentence is.
I agree with everyone that this poem was confusing and difficult to interpret in general, but I think we can all acknowledge the establishment of theme of love, simply by seeing the title. I agree with Anna's point which suggests that Eliot is pointing out the risk of being hurt when opening up to love. This theme is Eliot's definition of traditional, as it is relatable to a general audience, therefore timeless. Throughout the poem, Eliot alludes to the painful aspects of love. "The yellow fog that rubs its back upon the window panes,/The yellow smoke that rubs its muzzle on the window panes". As many have explained before me, the yellow smoke represents blindness and danger. Eliot chooses Dante Inferno as an epigraph because midway through the journey, Dante realizes he has taken the wrong path and is forced to pass through hell, purgatory, and paradise. I think this allusion signifies the tendency of people to doubt their choices - whether they choose love or the alternative, because either way they will face inevitable challenges. This is emphasized through Eliot's repetition of the questions "And where should I presume?/And how should I begin?" Whatever path a person takes, they will always doubt whether they made the right decision which represents the phase through hell, which will eventually lead to acceptance, signified by paradise.
ReplyDeletein response to Ms. Parrish, and yellow smoke...
ReplyDeletePerhaps yellow smoke is suggesting caution, as i said, but clouded and blinded. Maybe the smoke is hiding somehting that we do not know, what could be behind the smoke? Smoke can clear though, so we can determine what the smoke ishiding if we take caution initially perhaps? but then again maybe the smoke is not hiding somehting so bad after all and one must take risks despite signs of caution to discover something better, love?
Okay, I'm realling missing something here; I just don't see love in this poem.
ReplyDeleteHelp?
Okay. First of all, I would just like to say… I LOVE THIS POEM. Usually I’m like “ugh, a four page poem to read and annotate. Great.” But I actually fell in love with it.
ReplyDeleteANYWAYS. In response to George’s feline reference- I thought the same thing. However, my one question is this…is a feline really viewed as innocent? I feel that we fool ourselves to believe that cats are innocent through their perfection act. Although we recognize their smart and scheming, almost evil ways, we ignore it because of their appearance of perfection (always clean, always poised). It is this idea of perfection that we see is very prevalent within the poem. However, instead of using the word perfection, Eliot cleverly uses words such as “teacups”, “marmalade”, “tea”, “cakes”, “porcelain” (my favorite word to capture the perfection) and “ices”. Eliot allows ourselves to picture the perfection of the world around him, but all the while knowing they are lies and disguises for the mass worry (growing old before there is time to do what needs to be done) and confusion (should this question be asked now? Answered now? Asked or answered at all?) within. This is the main idea of the poem; the timid character going through life, afraid to ask questions, putting off things for later in life- opportunities one will probably never face again.
But to go to Ms. Parrish’s question, I was somewhat confused on Eliot’s choice of epigraph. However, I did come up with an idea—I’m not really sure if it makes sense but it’s worth a shot. Okay so my idea was that Eliot alludes to an epic about a journey through hell to parallel the torture of life to that experienced in hell. Eliot communicates the importance of “seizing the day” and demonstrates the almost sin-like punishment and torture it can have on a person’s life.
However, now that I think of it, Eliot’s other choices of epigraph reinforce this idea. Eliot brings up the Bible tale of Lazarus stating “And would it have been worth it, after all, after the cups, the marmalade, the tea, among the porcelain, among some talk of you and me, would it have been worth while, to have bitten off the matter with a smile, to have squeezed the universe into a ball to roll it toward some overwhelming question, to say: “I am Lazarus, come from the dead, come back to tell you all, I shall tell you all”(87-95). Eliot reminds us that we are not Lazarus, we do not have the option of coming back from the dead or having a second chance at life to do the things we wanted. Eliot also references the beheading of John the Baptist.saying “Should I, after tea and cakes and ices, but though I have wept and fasted, wept and prayed, though I have seen my head [grown slightly bald] brought in upon a platter, I am no prophet—and here’s no great matter;…and in short I was afraid.” (79-86) Eliot sees himself afraid in life and as a result he envisions his future fate, his death, his humiliation (of dieing by a beheading and then having his head mockingly displayed on a platter). Eliot continues on to say “I have seen the eternal Footman hold my coat, and snicker” (85) only further enforcing this point of the humiliation he has brought upon himself by living his life in the shadows.
ReplyDeleteKaare. I'm with you. I found Eliot's title to be ironic. He says it is a love song, but in no way does in communicate love, and in no way is it a song. It seems to have one chorus repeated twice, and a rhyme scheme that makes no sense... definitely not a song. And as for the love aspect, I found Eliot only to be criticizing his way of life, not saying anything about love.
ReplyDeleteAny ideas?
Also, I think the reference to yellow smoke is significant because smoke inhibits the senses, generally sight. Sight is often associated with logical thinking, and Eliot's reference to smoke could represent the loss of logic when presented with love. "Let us go then, you and I/When the evening is spread out against the sky/Like a patient etherised upon a table". Eliot suggests at the beginning of the poem that when making a crucial decision such as the choice of love, people are often sedated or lacking judgment such as when anesthetized. I agree with Kaare that the reference to evening is important, as the dark also inhibits judgment. I don't necessarily think having a lack of logic and judgment in this case is negative, because it allows one to make a gut decision. Whether it is regreted initially, acceptance will eventually follow.
ReplyDeleteokay guys, well I just read most of the posts, and it seems that I sort of did go out on a limb because no one really saw what I saw. But then again, I could be crazy and completely and utterly wrong. So I apologize in advance.
ReplyDeleteFrom Ms. Parrish's direct question to the symbol of smoke in the poem I thought of it as the element of confusion. Since one cannot see through smoke, along with the other elements of love that others have pointed out already, with the simple mention of smoke, Eliot adds this confusion aspect of love.
AND I TAKE BACK MY PREVIOUS COMMENT ABOUT LOVE. I AM WILLING TO SEE THE LOVE ENCAPTURED AMONG ELIOT'S PASSAGES. Maybe T.S Eliot is communicating this love in the form of regret??? How in order to love one must face this yellow fog and the life measured with coffee spoons?
I agree Nicole on how it speaks of making a gut decision; one lines 11-12, he says, "Oh do not ask, 'What is it?' let us go and make our visit," which definitely emphasizes your point.
ReplyDelete*** LEAVE the life measured with coffee spoons
ReplyDeletedon't be so quick to back down, Emma (and Kaare)!
ReplyDeleteExactly. I think Eliot's main point is to encompass the tendency of people to regret whatever decision they make whether it is love or not. However, I don't necessarily think it is wrong to interpret the poem as a criticism of his life and love in general. There are many points which refer to love pesimistically. The ending quote definetely suggests that idea. "We have ed in the chambers of the sea/By sea-girls with seaweed red and brown till human voices wake us and we drown". Obviously drowning refers to love negatively and the poem ends on the question whether love is worth the pain. So maybe, people are never led to acceptance?
ReplyDeleteif you don't know what it means or haven't already done so, look up the word "etherized"
ReplyDeleteI really like Larissa's idea about sin being intertwined with love. The whole idea of Eliot portraying, as Taylor said, "the hopelessness of an outcast" and Dante's epigraph about a journey from hell i think reflects the sin of indugence. This "Love Song" is a reflection upon the sins of indulgence during a love affair. While there are several mentionings about tea and cakes etc., one line in particular articulates this lover's decent into sin. "Is it perfume from a dress That makes me so digress?" (65). I said one line points this out well but i think this one does too: "Do I dare eat a peach?" (122). This might sound very safe, but i think Eliot is alluding to a loss of innocence caused by love.
ReplyDeleteWow, this poem is confusing. After reading it and annotating I found it enjoyable, yet incredibly deceptive. Nothing is presented as a straight idea, rather Elliot chooses to use imagery and abstract detail to convey his poem. This imagery, especially in the intro, had me thinking back to Grapes of Wrath, as the imagery that Elliot immediately hits the reader with is similar in nature to the imagery of Steinbeck, with the "dust" giving an impression of dryness and deadness in the world. "Let us go, through the half-deserted streets,/ The muttering retreats/ Of restless nights in one-night cheap hotels/ And sawdust restaurants with oyster-shells" (Elliot, 4-7). This vivid picture creates a setting that is definitely not beautiful or ideal; rather it seems to be more realistic, with a feeling that can almost be described as "uncleanliness". I also think that this idea relates to the whole idea of pastoral vs anti-pastoral that we have been discussing so much in class. Elliot never wants to give us a pastoral image; right off the bat anti-pastoral is present, and while much of the poem is so abstract to me that I cannot tell what kind of tone Elliot is using, there is obviously limited to no use of Pastoral in the writing.
ReplyDeleteI must confess that, like Kaare (and I'm sure many others) I finished my annotations with a lot of great starts to ideas that ended up going nowhere, or running into "dead ends". I found little bits and pieces that I found intriguing, but I could not put my finger on their meaning. One of these ideas was of the line Kaare brought up "In the room the women come and go/ Talking of Michelangelo" (13-24, 35-36). I could not find a concrete meaning for the double-use of this line, however I do have an incomplete theory. Anna mentioned that this poem is about love, and art and love are very closely related subjects. Michelangelo was a painter during the Renaissance, a period where love was especially prominent in the works of artists. Michelangelo is actually known for incorporating his own feelings of "love" in his work, and perhaps this is symbolic to the central theme of the story. Another thing that I picked up on was the mentioning of Lazarus (94), who, for those of you who don't know, is a biblical figure who was raised from the dead by Jesus according to the bible. I found this biblical reference fascinating, as I normally do, but I also have trouble piecing together a solid theory about it's use. I saw that this particular stanza was about a universal question, and I think that they used Lazarus as a messenger to answer such a question, but never actually mentioned what he would have said. Perhaps this is suggesting that there can be no answer to life's mysteries, and that we must go on pondering.
These are just some of my thoughts, sorry for how unfinished they seem, but this is one tough poem to interpret. Also, any ideas on the second to last stanza with the mermaids (pastoral?). I seem to be very stuck with the conclusion.
And Emma, I just saw your ideas on the Lazarus line. I think I like your interpretation better haha.
ReplyDeletere: Michaelangelo... imagine yourself at a party where women are coming and going, speaking about Michealenglo. Do you imagine this is a serious conversation? Who is the intended audience of this conversation? Based on the other images in the poem, what do you imagine the substance of this Michealangelo conversation is? Try to hear it in your head, imagine what these women, coming and going, in "the room" might look like, sound like, dress like...
ReplyDeletePerhaps then Michelangelo is seen as some kind of unrealistic romance? I can only see these girls talking of him in a joking way, and perhapes it is alluding to love that is not true (infatuation)? This might be completely wrong...
ReplyDeleteNot exactly, but you're on the right track, Luke. I know it is officially 10:00, so the "conversation" is likely winding down... but this is a really good starting point for tomorrow.
ReplyDeleteI interpreted the poem also as Larissa did, I agree that Elliot demonstrates that love is full of sin, and that living a life through love will only end up in a life of hell after death. Emma said, "the main idea of the poem; the timid character going through life, afraid to ask questions, putting off things for later in life- opportunities one will probably never face again", which I also agree with. I think in a way the two go together, love in most context is fleeting and as Nicole said, people have a tendency to hesitate in fear that they will regret whatever decision (As mentioned, "Do I dare eat a peach?"). As Eric said that the poem is a "reflection upon the sins of indulgence during a love affair", we see several aspects of that love affair through Elliot's word choice. "Estherised", the groggy and numbness of feeling ("Like a patient etherised upon a table") (3), the "yellow smoke" that is happiness and also dreariness and blurry with caution, a very ominous symbol (relating to "It is impossible to say just what I mean!"). The "tea and cakes and ices" are the innocent bliss, "cautious and meticulous" is the hesitancy, the question of action, what comes after the bliss. I'm not sure how the "mermaids singing" should be interpreted? Any thoughts on that?
ReplyDeleteIn attempt to synthesize many previous comments about yellow smoke, yellow fog, and Kaare's mention of the word evening, I feel Eliot places a large amount of attention to the element of atmosphere in the poem. Eliot REPEATEDLY uses words that allude to weather, temperature, atmosphere, time of day, etc to prove the importance of these places through the poem. Although George says, "they are dead ends upon which my brain has noted interesting scenery, yet then lamented that there was nothing to be found at the end," I feel these are prevalent in showing the instability of the journey J Alfred of Prufrock, and can relate to the choice of epigraph as well. Dante's Inferno, as larissa explains, is an account of traveling through the 9 levels of Hell.
ReplyDeleteLuke, I just read the part of the post that reads "Nothing is presented as a straight idea, rather Elliot chooses to use imagery and abstract detail to convey his poem". I think this is very accurate, (if what I just said is of any relevance or accuracy or insight at all), in that the imagery of the etherized table and then the fog, and the tea cakes, and the waves, and the flame of hell in the epigraph all contribute to Elliot's flow of emotion in the poem and tonality. If this emotion is love that he explores, and the uncertainty of life, it depicts the different phases one experiences on those journeys. Which is also interesting, I think, in the context of Daunte's 9 Layers of Hell, nine layers of experience almost. Maybe we can delve into the poem and find 9 layers to it, or phases of emotion, leading to a hell? Is that a possible interpretation of how Daunte's Inferno could function in this poem?
ReplyDeleteBut I don't think anyone is on here anymore to respond...
In response to Ms Parrish’s prompt, the word etherized is defined as “anesthetize (a person or animal) with ether.” I immediately looked up the word ether, and I found that ether, in a literary sense, is “the clear sky, the upper regions of air beyond the clouds.” However, another definition of ether has to do with chemistry, “a pleasant smelling, colorless, volatile liquid that is highly flammable.” I found the connection to chemistry interesting, because in T.S. Eliot’s “Tradition and the Individual Talent,” he refers to the relationship of tradition and individual talent as a chemical equation, combining two reactants to create an entirely new product: literature. He refers to a poet’s mind as “a shred of platinum” and later in the next paragraph refers to the Inferno. “Canto XV of the Inferno is a working uo if the emotion evident in the situation; but the effect, though single as that of any work of art, is obtained by considerable complexity of detail.” I am not completely sure of this significance, and I know this is after 10:00, but I felt the connection to another one of Eliot’s works was worth mentioning and an important element to consider.
ReplyDeleteWhoa Kara! Good point, I looked up etherized and didn't think of anything like that! I can't think of anything that would improve the brilliance of that point haha, but I'm excited to talk about it in class tomorrow.
ReplyDeleteInitially, upon reading this poem, I had similar reactions to George, Anna and Greg. However, after rereading it a few times, I have come to realize its unique characteristics that make this poem remarkable when compared to other poems. Throughout the poem, I see Eliot's focus of love dwindle away. It seemed as though Elliot began his essay strong with his ideas of love and a relationship, however focused on other topics as he came to his concluding lines.
ReplyDeleteAfter reading T.P's first blog entry (of many), I saw that he included Eric's quote from ""Tradition and the Individual Talent,"stating that "writing should be an infusion of the new into the old. I focused on the literary devices found in this piece. One of the most important devices that Eliot uses is repetition, which helps emphasize, and support his ideas. Also, Eliot uses questions in order to invite his audience to be involved with the discussion. As several stanzas contain multiple questions the narrator asks the audience; "so how should I presume?" ( Eliot 2), the epigraph includes a connection through these questions to the piece. The concluding line of the epigraph reads, "... without fear of infamy I answer you" ( Dante). The questions used seem to be justifying the answers given by Montefeltro. Also, I focused on the simplicity of the sentences, that lead to the understanding of individual sentences. I had much more difficulty understanding the poem as a whole.
Emma- adding on to your Lazarus idea. Not to mention the simplistic and surreal setting that the Bible creates for this scene. Not only do we not have "the chance to come back after death" (emma), but we also do not live in this idyllic setting that is created by the opportunity to come back and relive our mistakes in life.
ReplyDeleteKara- awesome connection. Also to add to that, the "anesthetize" part of the definition also plays into your connection, because it shows, that there is this chemical equation that we must attempt to "balance" and it is a difficult task, because we have very little say in the elemental factors of our life. That is where the anesthetic part comes in. Eliot mentions "But though I have wept and fasted, wept and prayed, Though I have seen my head grown slightly bald..." ( Eliot 1232). These are factors that can't be controlled in our lives. As the narrator wept and prayed, he realized that nothing would ever change these elements of his life. This creates an image as though he was under anesthetic, because we have very little control of the situation and it makes it difficult to comprehend what is going on around us in our everyday lives.