Some things to think about before the discussion test (both for those of you who missed class yesterday and for those who want to continue talking about some of the things we began discussing)
1. Think about the structure of the book--how important are the first/last chapter in our understanding of Salinger's purpose? Of Holden as a character?
2. Literary allusions... The Great Gatsby, A Farwell to Arms, Of Human Bondage, The Return of the Native, Oliver Twist, Emily Dickinson (think about how Allie calls her a war poet) and of course the Robert Burns poem to which the title (erroneously) alludes: how do these enhance our reading of the text? Setting the novel in a high school works well for incorporating canonical literature without it seeming hackneyed, but why these specific texts and authors?
3. We talked about museums and the purpose they serve (preserving, freezing artifacts), but how do the other places Holden visits in New York serve to enhance our understanding of his desire, anxiety, nostalgia or emotional state in general?
Feel free to post other questions or ideas, these are just a starting point. Enjoy your weekend, wear your red hunting hats if you go out in the snow.
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TOday in class we talked about how Holden was uncomfortable with becoming close with people he liked. We talked briefly about Jane and Mrs. Parrish said that she is on of the most important characters in the novel. One thing i noticed was she was the person Holden most often talked about and wanted to get in ouch with, yet never was "in the mood" to do so. Holden took the time to be with Sally, Ackley, his old friends from school, and even gave a call to a girl his friend from Princeton recommended, but the one girl he really cared for, Jane, just as he would get ready to give her call fell out of "the mood" to call her. "You don't even know if her first name is Jane or Jean, ya goddam moron!", Holden even allowed for Stradlater to beat him up to stick up for Jane (44). Holden's insecurity of how Jane, and others who he actually cared about would judge and view him was so high that he would rather stay miserable and not form close relationships.
ReplyDeleteHolden constantly gets mad at people for being phony, but he seems to be the most phony because he can't be his true self. Yet i don't think he is phony because he is doing this to protect himself, and how others he cares about view him. His insecurity is an example of his immaturity and inability to "grow up" because he is unable to face reality.
For a long time during the discussion today, I was running a couple thoughts through my head, but just could not seem to verbalize them into a coherently linked logic chain. What I've finally determined, though, is that simply, Holden is an immature kid in a mature body. The problem however, remains the question of what the definition of maturity is.
ReplyDeleteI believe that maturity is the idea that you can change yourself in order to be accepted in society. What Holden does, on the other hand, is simply present himself as he was without any knowledge of what goes on in society. He knows nothing of maturity and adulthood (i.e. "Sex is something I don't understand. I swear to God I don't" (63)), yet there he is looking for drinks, smokes, and sex anywhere he can get them. Holden doesn't want to change who he is at the core just to please society as a whole. So, unfortunately, he is still a kid, albeit a kid who can drink, smoke, and do whatever he wants.
He also shows an immaturity with his fascination with the ducks. Throughout the rest of the book, he speaks in a condescending voice about other people in general. "That kind of stuff drives me crazy..." Yet, he can't seem to be able to come up with an answer to this duck problem, no matter how much he paints himself as someone who knows more than all those other "phonies" in the world. This close examination of the ducks just shows that he is still a kid who doesn't know any better but to question the world as it is.
This, for me, makes Holden an odd character to sympathize with. On the one hand, he is a lonely, sad, insignificant kid trapped in a body too big for him. Yet, on the other, he is technically an adult and needs to learn to grow up.
I had the same problem as George did today in class-my thoughts weren't making sense in my head, so I had to think them out at home in order to better articulate them.
ReplyDeleteI've decided, agreeing with everyone else, that Holden is indeed immature, and uses this immaturity to keep himself from growing up. Because Holden tries to avoid confrontation (I think Anna touched on this today in class), Holden refuses to reveal himself to those that he does not know and/or trust (ex: woman on the train, Sunny the prostitute, people at Pency, ect.). This desire of not wanting to reveal who his really is implies that he is trying to protect himself (but from what?), and therefore is corrupting society with his lies. This makes it so that no one knows who Holden really is, and this helps to keep him sane to some extent. in keeping himself because of his lies, Holden is able to keep his childhood alive, and I think he actually thinks that he is protected by the ghost of his brother, Allie.
Now that I'm on the topic of Allie, I have a lot to say. I agree with (I forget who said this...Anna or Brooke I think) that Allie is Holden's guide and strength in life. Towards the end of the novel, Phoebe asks Holden what he likes, and Holden is at a loss of words. However, he replies, "I like Allie." To which Phoebe replies, "Allie's dead!" Holden freaks out, and retorts with, "I know he's dead! Don't you think i know that? I can still like him, though, can't I? Just because somebody's dead, you don't stop liking them, for God's sake-especially if they were a thousand times nicer than the people you know that're alive and all" (Salinger 171). I thought that this passage was really significant, because Holden admits that the only thing that he really likes, is is brother Allie, and he is the only one who he realy has any sort of compassion for. Holden trusts him, and seems to model his life after what he learned from Allie. Because of this, Holden is stuck in his childhood, which messes up his maturity process. Holden is our age-16- so I don't really think that he's ready to be an adult, but he should be well on the way to shaping his future.
Holden is unsure of what he wants to do with his life, but he doesn't want society to reject him, so he feeds people lies in order to make his life seem meaningful to others. Mr. Antolini says to Holden, "Don't you think that there's a time and place for everything?" (184). and, Holden's other teacher Mr, Spencer asks, "Do you feel absolutely no concern for your future boy?...you will when it's too late" (14). I thought that these pieces of advice were interesting, because they show that Holden is really not aware of what is going on around him, and has no plans at all, except for what will be happening to him in say, the next half hour, if even that.
George I certainly agree with you. This immaturity is definitely as you stated and cited, something continuosly appears within the text.
ReplyDeleteHowever, going off onto something almost completely different...today I found it interesting how we talked about the difference between the way one acts around family and the way one acts around their friends. While the discussion was going on we were often focusing on Jane - why Holden had such a love for her...why he loved being around her as opposed to anyone else. While his friends clearly played a significant role in his life, it was actually his family that kept him alive.
After examining Allie and Holden I realized that the two brothers almost create a paradox. Let me explain further...
Holden frequently finds a saftey in the things that never change. One of many examples in the book, includes the idea Holden delights in the idea that a child still is nice and polite - keeps up the morals of the past. It reads, "I love it when a kid's nice and polite when you tighten their skate for them or something. Most kids are. They really are." (119).
I think such an idea of delighting in the past, directly corresponds to Allie. Allie, we know, died a few years before 'Holden' wrote this. Perhaps, (and we don't know), had Allie lived longer he too would have become a phony. But in Allie's death, his childlike 'politeness' and realness is perserved. As Eric mentioned, Holden's language is always very visionary and optomistic when talking of Allie or Pheobe - because they aren't phony.
This perservation of Allie, even if in death, is therefore in a sense, keeping Holden alive in a phony world. In this way Allie and Holden create a paradox.
Quick sidenote to Beth (and because I forgot to mention this in class): I felt it was not so much a paradox as a yin-and-yang relationship, where one balances the other out and neither truly guides the other while both are founded on each other.
ReplyDeleteGeorge, I really have to disagree with you. If "maturity is the idea that you can change yourself in order to be accepted in society" then are we all posers living to please others? I personally don't think that a person constantly changing their standards/ expectations/ personality to please/ fit in/ with other people makes them "mature" at all. I actually think they would be really irritating to me. If you are constantly changing for other people, does that leave any room to be genuine? I think that is exactly what Holden hates, and why he loves that "genuine" quality, specifically childhood because it is entirely untainted, why he wants to be the catcher in the rye. I said this on friday, and I think Ms. Parrish said this too, that Allie's death is such a tragedy because he was genuine. In a way if Allie had lost his baseball mitt while he was alive, and if Holden had to watch Allie fall out of that childlike state, it would have been much worse than him dying, because now he has this image of Allie frozen in his mind, this supposedly genuine child-like state. And I think that is what he is constantly looking for, and I think that's what makes his story so heartbreaking.
ReplyDeleteAnd I'm wondering if insecurity establishes a person as immature. Perhaps a "secure" or confident person would appear to be more mature, but does that really make them more of an adult? I can think of a lot of adults I know who are very insecure about their circumstances and also who they are as people. I can also think of people younger than me who are a lot more "secure" or outwardly confident than I am. While I do think that Holden is immature in some ways because of his unwillingness to reveal himself, or because he is hypocritical, I also think he has a lot more of the qualities that we would assume a "mature" person to have. He's been alienated, isolated, experienced great loss, and that's represented and only touched upon by stories throughout the book that he merely brushes off. I don't necessarily think he is trapped in "a body too big for him", but in a world, Pencey, the other schools etc., where everyone around him is much too small, inexperienced, there is nowhere where he can express the way that he cares about everything, no one who could understand, or who he thinks could understand, and as a result everyone is "phony" and he is surrounded by them coming through the "goddamn windows". Everyone is "phony" because he is happy- when he's having a good time/ bearable time with Stradlatter/ girls dancing in NYC/ whomever, and when he feels like he belongs, even only for a moment, it's not nearly as bad for him.
**Everyone is "phony" because he is unhappy
ReplyDelete(what I meant)
I have to agree with Grace that maturity is not necessarily changing oneself to be accepted to society. As Grace says, this would entail a world of "posers”. I think maturity in this context is accepting the fact that the world is a superficial place. To cope with this realization, one may not necessarily conform to society, but understand, consider and accept the possible consequences of being completely true. For example, one of the few times when Holden says exactly what he's thinking is when he tells Sally she is "a pain in the ass". Immediately, Sally starts crying and Holden apologizes. This makes me wonder if a "phony" world is better, because a completely genuine world would be destructive. But do people lie for other's protection, or for their own protection?
ReplyDeleteI find that Holden often does lie to protect others or himself, which is from fear. For example, Holden would not have directly called the person who stole his gloves a thief. He often describes himself as yellow, meaning he cannot always be completely true to himself. "It's no fun to be yellow. Maybe I'm not all yellow. I don't know. I think maybe I'm just partly yellow and partly the type that doesn't give a damn if they lose their gloves". This sentence is contrasting because he is claiming that he is fearful to tell the truth, but he sometimes does not care. This presents his inner conflict of innocence and maturity.
Also, I found a quote that I thought was interesting and was wondering what everyone else thinks of it. It’s the quote Mr. Antolini tells Holden towards the end of the novel. "The mark of the immature man is that he wants to die nobly for a cause, while the mark of the mature man is that he wants to live humbly for one" (188). Does Holden want to die nobly for his cause? If he becomes more mature toward the end of the novel, what is he living humbly for?
ReplyDelete