"'Can't repeat the past?' he cried incredulously. 'Why of course you can!'Our question tonight can be categorized into 4 separate yet related topics:
He looked around wildly, as if the past were lurking here in the shadow of his house, just out of reach of his hand.
'I'm going to fix everything just the way it was before,' he said, nodding determinedly. 'She'll see.'"--F. Scott Fitzgerald (117)
1) What overall role does memory and the past play in influencing any character's actions and thoughts? (For example, Tom immediately believes Gatsby to be "'some big bootlegger'" (114) simply based off of past experience.)
2) What effect do you believe status and name have on Gatsby's society?
3) Can the past truly be re-created and/or changed?
4) If so (or if not), how does this affect one's lifestyle?
P.S. This blog needed a little bit of color
How the heck did you get those colors on the blog? This is blowing my mind.
ReplyDelete*mind officially blown
ReplyDeletewoooahhh
ReplyDeleteanna, we're soo doing this tomorrow on our blog! it makes it more interesting..
ReplyDeleteOooo colors. WOW! That's so amazing!
ReplyDeleteYou do realize there is a button to choose text color, and if you knew what you were doing, you could write the base HTML/XML for the blog posting yourself and format it in even prettier ways. That said, dibs on 3.
No way TP i got dibs. bring it on, BLOG WAR
ReplyDeleteI do not have much time so I am going to respond to the idea of past/present in the chapter. I feel that this notion is very important in that it is encompassed in the idea of time in general that we have discussed in class, and I find the quote on the blog question to be very interesting.
ReplyDeleteI am going to start by giving a quote almost immediately following the blog quote, as I think that it to is very related to the situation Gatsby is in, "He talked a lot about the past and I gathered that he wanted to recover something, some idea of himself perhaps, that had gone into loving Daisy. His life had been confused and disordered since then, but if he could once return to a certain starting place and go over it all slowly, he could find out what that thing was..." (117). In a nutshell, Gatsby believes that if he looks into his past, he will be able to recover some part of him that he needs to stabilize his love with Daisy and his life in general. He is also saying that by finding this thing, he will be able to "repeat the past", or get Daisy to fall for him again. While I do believe that it is possible to perhaps do something that would have a similar result as a past event, I do not think that you can truly change the past. I feel this way only because once something happens, it is set in stone; there is no going back. If you try to repeat said action, however, the result cannot possibly be the same, as the initial result will have an affect on the way the second attempt is perceived. Daisy has already fallen for Gatsby and they have broken off, so to try to get together with her again could conceivably be possible, however there will always be the memories of their first relationship (which we have yet to discover) to hang over them.
I also have another somewhat non-related quote that I found very intriguing. "For a while these reveries provided an outlet for his imagination; they were a satisfactory hint of the unreality of reality, a promise that the rock of the world was founded securely on a fairy's wing" (105). I see this quote as saying that the world itself is somewhat of a dream; that nothing really matters and that everything is almost unreal. However, I am still not exactly sure what else to make of it. Any ideas?
Looks like I beat your dibs... HA.
ReplyDelete...although I'm sure you can add more.
The question of whether the past can be recreated and/or changed is one for the ages. Countless people have wished to be able to go back in time and redo their mistakes, or relive their greatest moments (I know we all have).
ReplyDeleteIn the Great Gatsby, the latter is more applicable. Gatsby seeks to relieve all the glory of his relationship with Daisy from five years before. He wants that "one autumn night, five years before, [when] they had...kissed" (117). Yet, try as he might, the moment is still part of the past and it is impossible to recreate. "You can't repeat the past" (116).
Gatsby can try as much as he likes, with dances and tea and the derogatory opulence of his wealth, but try as he might, what he is looking for, the past, is "just out of reach of his hand" (117). Gatsby's obsession, for it is just that, with the past, dominates his world, his life. Whereas Nick has a job and a life after these parties, Gatsby does not. He stands peering into the distance for the light at the end of the dock. However, as we saw before, the closer he gets, the farther away that ideal becomes, until it can no longer be seen. The paradoxical nature of increasing impossibility (which is in itself a paradox) with decreasing distance, proves invalid Gatsby's claim "Can't repeat the past? ... Why of course you can" (116). For literary purposes (in physics we have the time space continuum but that's a whole other story) time flows in a linear fashion - well not really but you get the point.
In short, the impossibility of recreating the past created a vortex in Gatsby's life, which is dragging him from the realm of the tangible, of the real, to that of dreams (or pastoral).
Well...i agree the colors are amazing.. but i think i'm gonna answer the question now haha
ReplyDeleteMemories and and the past have proven to be important throughout, and Gatsby undoubtedley is attempting to bring back, and/ or fix his past. He expects Daisy to pick up exactly where they left off, and to drop everything/one (Tom) for him. "He wanted nothing less of Daisy than that she should go to Tom and say: 'I never loved you"(116). Daisy though has been in an entirely different world for so long, that is was obviously difficult for her to automatically feel and act on her past feelings. I don't believe you can really "re-enact" the past, perhaps your feelings for someone can come back from the past when re-united, but if one is "truly" in love with someone woulnd't they never have stopped being in love with them so that these feelings were never really in the past? The closest Gatsby and Daisy get to "re-enacting" their psat in the half hour during the party in which they have time alone, "...I knew that except for the half hour she'd been alone with Gatsby she wasn't haveing a good time" (112). They have been apart for so lond, and in such different environmetns that they can only be as they once were when in total solitutde with one another.
This idea that we can never re-enact or go back to the way things were in our past I think can confuse us. Our memories are what connect us with our pasts, "...but if he could once return to a certain starting place and go over it all slowly, he could find out what that thing was...", when Nick thinks this, and then follows into one of Gatsby's memories he is left with confusion and loss (117). The last sentence of the chapter concludes the idea that one cannot re-enact or re-communicate the past, "But they made no sound and what i had almost remembered was uncommunicable forever", once in the past it will remain in the past, except for memories which never entirely bring back these events/feelings/moments from the past(118).
Damn you Luke.
ReplyDeleteTo add to your final quotes, I noticed that as well, and I took it to show the inherent instability of Gatsby's world. His 'rock,'the foundation of his life was the intangible, a 'fairy's wing.' His reality is unreal. Gatsby does not live in Nick's world, but rather one of his own creation, an idyllic landscape where churrros and donuts coexist, where dream and reality blend to form the portrait of life, and the past can be part of the present. That in and of itself, is impossible, which is what I believe the quote intends to illustrate.
Touche, Taylor, touche.
ReplyDeleteI think memory is a way of distorting reality. George's quote completely supports this position, because Tom is not aware of the actual facts of Gatsby's past. Another quote I found is " For a while these reveries provided an outlet for his imagination; they were a satisfactory hint of the unreality of reality, a promise that the rock of the world was founded securely on a fairy's wing" (105). Fitzgerald's overwhelming use of paradox and oxymoron in this quote shows the insecurity of memory, and how the truth may not be percieved the same way by different people. I think Fitzgerald tries to show his readers that memory is not a stable or reliable source of information. By using contrasting words such as "rock" and "fairys wing" the reader automatically notes the differences between the connotations of these two words. Also, "unreaality" and "reality" are direct opposites, which adds deliberate confusion to the quote.
ReplyDeleteSo I just refreshed the page and I saw that Luke also brought up this quote. I'm not sure if Fitzgerald is asserting that all of life is a dream, but memories, as opposed to the "rock" solid and "real" facts are easily misinterpreted or unreal. Fairy's wings are not only unsteady, but also the fact that fairies do not exist in the natural world alludes to the point that memories are a part of a dream.
Also, the fixation on alcohol and how it can effect the memory of the characters in the book (as well as all humans) I think also plays an important role in discussing the purpose of memory in The Great Gatsby. Memories can be lost, or altered when under the influence of alcohol, and i think Fitzgerald makes a point of incorporating this into his novel. Ok now I'm just rambling, is there anyone who can make sense of this?
Okay so now that I have officially chosen to work on question number three, here is my opinion of the question.
ReplyDeleteCan the past truly be re-created and/or changed?
Well, the past can't be changed in reality, however the past can be re-created due to our perception of the situation. Remember our talk today in class, about the green light. How Gatsby perceives the green light is different than how others view this inanimate object? Well the same goes for the past. We can not permanently change the past, yet we can re-create our perception of the past in order to relive the experiences and emotions of the past. Most of this re-creation takes place in our minds when we are placed in a familiar setting. For example, if you sit at the same bench every christmas eve, it is likely that you will remember something from the last time you sat on that bench, for example, that a dove came and sat on your shoulder. That would be re-creation of the past.
Tom explains, "He talked a lot about the past, and I gathered that he wanted to recover something, some idea of himself perhaps that had gone into loving Daisy. His life had been confused and disordered since then, but if he could once return to a certain starting place and go over it all slowly, he could find out what that thing was..." (Fitzgerald 110)
These are a quick excerpt of my thoughts. be back after dinner!
Brooke
*my page # are different
ahh luke. u took my quote b4 i could post it :( hahah jk
ReplyDeleteso i think i'm kind of going to talk about a combination of 1 and 3....
ReplyDeletesorry taylor
Anyways
As i talked about in yesterday's blog, each character's view of the present and future is affected by the memories this character has of the past. A memory however can be altered and adjusted over time making memories seem more like we wished they were or want them to be. Adjusting memories subconsciously can set high expectations for the future as we may build up a memory of the past, that we want to relive in the future, to be more than it ever truly was or could be. This is clear in Gatsby's character. He has this perfect and ideal view of his relationship with Daisy.Before his most recent encounters wiht her, through Nick, she was only alive in him through his memory, and the little green light visible across the see. this glow from far away kept his memory of the past, of Daisy and his relationship, in tact but as he reminisced, he had the ability to embellish his image of her in his memory as he had no reality to compare it to.
Stealing the quote used in the question, "Can't repeat the past? ...why of course you can!...i'm going to fix everything just the way it was before...she'll see."(Fitzgerald 117) This shows clearly the way that Gatsby believes he can simply just recreate the past, reliving the memories he has with Daisy. Gatsby has this simplistic view that he can just make everything how it used to be by using his memories and dreams as models. however, this is completely unrealistic and impossible. first off, because Gatsby's memories have changed and are too good to true. The memories he has are flawless and impossible to recreate, especially since many of them probably never happened as perfectly aas he now recalls them as happening. Not only this, but because the present is different than the past, it is impossible to recreate the past. Daisy is married, Gatsby has this secretive job and so it would be impossible to repeat the past with all of these new obstacles which were not present the many years ago when Daisy and Gatsby were together originally. because of memories and the way we have of editing, embellishing or adjusting them, and the impact the past, memories of the past and the present have on the future, there is truly no way to repeat the past.
Well, I feel like numbers 3 and 4 are more connected then is lead to believe by the separation of these questions. For example, if one is trying to re-create the past then aren’t they also changing their lifestyle in order to make this happen? I feel like the expression “If you keep doing what you’ve always done, then you’ll keep getting what you’ve always gotten” applies to this thought very nicely. You see, Gatsby realizes that in order to make Daisy “see” he is going to have to make some changes both to his parties and to himself. Personally, I would classify parties and personal changes as a form of lifestyle, wouldn’t you?
ReplyDeleteNow, as for do I believe that the past can truly be changed, my answer is no. This being said, I do believe that we can look on the past to help build our future. (Yes, I know that that sounds like some sort of corny IBM ad). This ties into exactly what Luke was saying when he posted the quote he found on page 117. Gatsby realizes that he must look into his past in order to help change is future. If he has any hope of getting Daisy to see him at all, then he must first see himself and what he used to be. Gatsby must go back to the way he was when Daisy actually loved him, in order to get her to love him again. This isn’t changing the past, but more using it to ones advantage. “…One autumn night, five years before, they had been walking down the street when the leaves were falling, and they came to a place where there were no trees and the sidewalk was white with moonlight” (Fitzgerald. 116). In contrast to Gatsby’s parties, this moonlight sidewalk is a much calmer, more serene, romantic setting. We are talking about change, and I find it hard to believe that Gatsby can change the bustling life style he lives now, to recreate the romantic peaceful one he apparently lived before.
Beat you to it Kara.
ReplyDeleteOk, no one has done question 2 yet, so I'll respond to it.
ReplyDeleteChapter 7, I thought, was a very interesting read, because we learned more about Gatsby, his past and his present, and there also seems to be the beginnings of a conflict between Gatsby and Tom. Towards the end of the chapter, Tom enters a scene at Gatsby's home, and I'm thinking what?! Why is he here...but, it's pretty clear that like the majority of the folks who have passed through Gatsby's grounds, Tom and his friends simply showed up. Daisy said something, which I thought was kind of interesting coming from her (the ditzy bitch), "Lots of people haven't been invited...They simply force their way in and he's too polite to object" (Fitzgerald 115). This asks the question, why DOES Gatsby allow all of these people to roam about his yard, not even knowing who he is, or what the truth about him really is? I think it comes back to the idea that status in the world of the Eggs is really an important aspect of their society. There's another example of this, which I guess isn't that important, but when Gatsby calls Tom "the polo player" (111), and I think that this sets a standard for Tom in Gatsby's home. In order to be a polo player, you have to have a lot of money, and by establishing this, it perhaps opens up a new door, and a new society for Tom. I really liked the quote that says, "Or perhaps I had merely grown used to it, grown to accept West Egg as a world complete in itself, with its own standards and its own figures, second to nothing because it has no consciousness of being so..." (110). i thought that this really demonstrated what exactly results attending a Gatsby party; it's a totally different world, with different standards, and new levels or behavior are presented. Nick is admitting that he has grown to be one of the "West Eggers", (except most of these people aren't even from West Egg haha..) but as it says in the quote, West Egg has its OWN standards and its OWN great figures.
As tot he affect it has on people in the society, it clearly plays a large role in establishing yourself; it appears that anyone who is anyone has attended at least one of The GREAT Gatsby parties. Even Daisy notes, "I've never met so many celebrities!" (111) showing that Gatsby has excellent connections, and people attend these parties to make themselves appear greater than they truly are.
that was a major ramble and my thoughts were really jumbled, so anyone can feel free to make my response sound more coherent...
ReplyDeleteI would like to focus on the last two questions regarding whether it is possible to change the past or re-create it, and how this would affect one’s lifestyle. I also believe that the past cannot be altered, and additionally believe it is basically impossible for the past to be re-created. Earlier in the chapter, destiny is mentioned, which questions whether a person is able to alter their ultimate path in life. “An instinct toward his future glory had led him, some months before, to the small Lutheran College…dismayed at its ferocious indifference to the drums of his destiny, to destiny itself…” (Fitzgerald 105). This states that no matter how much willpower a person has, it is not enough to alter what is in their future. Additionally, people cannot change their past or re-create it because as Luke said, it is concrete. Once something has happened, that specific event forever remains that way in people’s memory. It is possible for people’s perspective and memory to change, but that does not physically or literally change the past. “It is invariably saddening to look through new eyes at things upon which you have expended your own powers of adjustment” (111). Gatsby has the hope that the past can be re-created, however his goals seem to always be out of reach because his aspirations are impossible. “He looked around him wildly, as if the past were lurking here in the shadow of his house, just out of reach of his hand” (117).
ReplyDeleteGatsby and Daisy are not the same people as they were years ago when they were last together. This is due to experience; simply the act of being alive. It is inevitable for people to change, and circumstances surrounding those people to alter. Therefore, it is impractical to hope that if two people meet again, it will be ‘just like old times’ because it won’t be. Gatsby was hoping to restore his former self in order to re-create the past. “He had talked a lot about the past and I gathered information that he wanted to recover something, some idea of himself perhaps…” (117). When Gatsby aspires to change or re-create the past,he is setting himself up to be disappointed and lead an unfulfilled life in which he eternally hopes to achieve the impossible.
Okay so, the splitting of the questions was really meant to just clean up the question format - instead of just a huge block of text that's hard to read and might require some organizational device for some people to understand - not really to ask 4 separate questions. But whatever floats your boats.
ReplyDeleteAnd why did everyone notice the colors but not the fact that this was "posted" at 8:30 yesterday?
Taylor, I think your comment in saying "Gatsby's obsession, for it is just that, with the past, dominates his world, his life" relates to what Nicole responded on last night's blog. Nicole pointed out that Gatsby sets impossible goals (like recreating his relationship with Daisy exactly as it felt to him 5 years ago…) and does so purposely so that he will always have a goal to reach, and as you said Taylor, as a result, at the end of the day he stands peering into the distance for the light at the end of the dock instead of people like Nick, who live beyond the realm of that light. Nicole pointed out that there will always be an excuse for Gatsby to be unhappy, as he constantly thinks about how his life would be better if he could achieve his goals and simultaneously recreate the past- a seemingly impossible task. As you all have said already, the past will remain the past, despite attempts to alter/ re-create it. In my opinion, Gatsby’s attempts to recreate his past and his inability to live in reality show the insecurity he holds within himself and also, like Nicole said before, the fact that he will most likely never be truly happy with himself, with the world around him, and with his relationship with Daisy. Gatsby, after crying “incredulously”, “Can’t repeat the past? Why of course you can!”, looks around “wildly, as if the past were lurking here in the shadow of his house, just out of reach of his hand” (117). Going with that, Ms. Parrish corrected me in last night’s blog in saying that the Green light represents an impossible merging of the past and the future, so I think it is only fitting to Gatsby’s character that he continually stare into such an object.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Grace's post. Including the part that he can never re-create the past, however, I believe that Gatsby can re-create it in his own life, however this perception would not affect anyone else, besides Gatsby. I also really liked Graces last few sentences about the green light, I think that it is right on and successfully explains the significance of the green light in the chapter.
ReplyDeleteThere were only eight comments before I posted, so I didn't know how repetitive I was being! So a few people mentioned how personal memory allows a person to relive an event in the past, but not truly change the past. I agree with that statement, and I think it relates back to the point made yesterday that history is biased. People remember things the way they want to or how it is beneficial to their lives. The past is concrete, however the memories of the past are not. Each person has their own individual perspective which may alter with time. The past may be actuality, but memory is each person's reality. As Anna says, the green light is visible from the sea, and this reflects back an image of Gatsby's past, creating an allusion which makes him believe he can relive the past.
ReplyDeleteI SLIGHTLY DISAGREE WITH EVERYONE ON THIS BLOG POST. I TRULY BELIEVE THAT YOU CAN RECREATE THE PAST WITHIN YOURSELF, but I do agree that you can't re-create the past beyond your own self boundaries.
ReplyDeleteBut Brooke, would that be truly recreating the past if it was just within your head? Wouldn't that be nothing more than a dream?
ReplyDeleteOh yeah George, I noticed that. Why does it say 8:30 last night? Is the clock messed up again or something?
ReplyDeleteI absolutely agree with Nicole and Grace in saying that Gatsby will most likely never be truly happy with himself and that this green light seems to be unattainable. While i don't really have much else to say, i think it is interesting how Fitzgerald works subtly to exile Gatsby in a really big way--he continually refers to him as a God-like figure: "He was a son of God--a phrase which, if it means anything, means just that..." (104) " ' In case there's a fire or a flood' she explained, 'or any act of God'" (112) "He knew that when he kissed this girl, and forever wed his unutterable visions to her perishable breath, his mind would never romp again like the mind of God." (117). I think Gatsby's dreams of recreating the past being impossible have a lot to do with his insecurity, but there is something about him being portrayed as a God that i think also alienates him from not only his hopes of dreams of being with Daisy but also society in general. I think also this idea needs more fleshing out.
ReplyDeleteWatch your language, Taylor.
ReplyDeleteAH. Sorry Ms. Parrish. I just got home so I'm gonna make this one quick so I can be somewhat on time.
ReplyDeleteOkay, well I'm going to have to go against pretty much all of you (didn't really have time to read all of the post but of the ones I read...) and say that YES, the past can be altered. Just like perception of events alters memories, someones will can also alter them. By pretending to picture something different from what one actually saw at the time, one may suddenly think that maybe, just maybe, they actually saw it that way. Sadly, these are how our minds work. We can eventually twist and change the truth until we see what we want to see. Also, memories can be influenced by actions in the present. Say if one is mad at another all memories about them suddenly turn into ones where that other person is scheming, evil, etc. We no longer trust that person and as a result we question our memories of this person, looking at each one carefully, dubious of everything they did and said. But say this grudge is somehow lifted and this one person becomes our best friend once again, suddenly all memories are changed and put into a more positive light, reinforcing the friendship. These changes occur because we make the past what we want to remember based on what is concurrent in the present. Gatsby does this with Daisy throughout the novel thus far, remembering his relationship with Daisy from years ago. He glamorizes this relationship, taking it so far from reality that he makes it impossible for Daisy to ever live up to what he has imagined.Can one even relive the past? Yes. One can get so wrapped up in their memories that they can forget about the reality of the present time around them. So basically that is my answer to the last two questions.
However, I found the name question particularly interesting so I'm quickly going to respond to that. Well, the most evident relationship we see between class and names is in Gatsby himself. "James Gatz-that was really, or at least legally, his name.He had changed it at the age of seventeen and at the specific moment that witnessed the beginning of his career-when he saw Dan Cody's yacht drop anchor over the most insidious flat on Lake Superior. It was James Gatz who had been loafing along the beach that afternoon in a torn green jersey and a pair of canvas pants, but it was already Jay Gatsby who borrowed a row-boat, pulled out to the Tuolomee and informed Cody that a wind might catch him and break him up in half an hour. I suppose he'd had the name ready for a long time, even then. His parents were shiftless and unsuccessful farm people-his imagination had never really accepted them as his parents at all. The truth was that Jay Gatsby, of West Egg, Long Island, sprang from his Platonic conception of himself."(104) By disassociating himself from ever having these poor farmer parents by changing his name, he is able to come up higher on the class ladder. His name also captures the high social class system and he lets this name define his as we see in the sentence "He was a son of God-a phrase which, if it means anything mean just that-and he must be about His Father's Business, the service of a vast, vulgar, and meretricious beauty. SO he invented just the sort of Jay Gatsby that a seventeen year old boy would be likely to invent, and to this conception he was faithful to the end."(104)The name Jay Gatsby also has a much more distinguished ring to it, defining his place in society, rather than a common, flat sounding name like James Gatz.Okay, so I;m really late and kind of just rambling so those are just some thoughts if you can make any sense out of them....
ReplyDeletehahaha well. I tried my hardest to make it short.... it didn't really work out all that well.
ReplyDeleteoh. Nevermind! Brooke's on my side! :)
ReplyDeleteMs. Parrish, in case your reading this right now. PLEASE CHECK YOUR E-MAIL! thanks, Greg
ReplyDeleteGreg, I wrote you back (though perhaps it is too late now?)... thanks for blogging without me, everyone, we have lots to discuss in class.
ReplyDeleteAnd George, I did notice the time stamp, but I figured my first comment had already derailed us enough.
My question to Brooke and Emma is: if the past can be altered (actually, somewhat how Didion says that she has altered her own past in "On Keeping a Notebook") can it be altered for all involved, and if so/not, does that matter?
ReplyDeleteLet's say that Gatsby is able to alter his memory of the past... is he able to alter the collective experience of his past? Is that what he's after? Is his altering of the past achieving what he really hopes to achieve? Why or why not?
Does this make Gatsby a creator of some sort? An author? A "god"?
ReplyDeleteIf someone recreating (or attempting and failing to recreate the past) is what makes someone a demi-god, what is the American religion? Think about the American Adam myth article from a few weeks ago...
ReplyDelete