I did not bring my plan book home with me this weekend, so I do not know who is supposed to post tonight. I am posting something for those of you to respond to who have to leave or who want to get the response done early this afternoon rather than waiting. If the chapter 5 group posts also, you can choose to answer their question or mine, or some combination of the two.
Notice the importance of time in Chapter 5--from the big sense (the passage of time) to the very literal sense (clocks). What is Fitzgerald saying about history, memory and time? Is there a paradox here? If so, why or how does this paradox enrich our understanding of the novel? Use specific textual evidence in your response.
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I find that the passage of time itself in The Great Gatsby is often erratic; one chapter can follow one day in Nick's life, while another chapter can be composed of several days. This chapter is composed of two days, but the first day only lasts for the first three pages, while the second day takes up the remainder. For me, this leaves a very fast-paced feeling to the book, that time is moving steadily along at a brisk pace. When Gatsby arrives at Nick's place for their meeting with Daisy, he remarks that, "Nobody's coming to tea!" and it's "too late," to which Nick says, "Don't be silly; it's just two minutes past four," seemingly addressing this rushed period of time within the novel (Fitzgerald 90). Also, Gatsby's utterance of it being "too late" suggests that time for something unknown is running out. This is further seen in the significance of the old clock. As Gatsby rests his head on the mantelpiece where the clock resides, he puts too much force on it, and the clock falls; however, he manages to catch it with "trembling fingers" and sets it back in place (90). Gatsby then says, "I'm sorry about the clock," and Nick responds "idiotically" with, "It's and old clock," as if the clock had actually broken (92). According to Nick, they had "all believed for a moment that [the clock] had smashed in pieces on the floor," suggesting that the three of them do seem to feel this decreasing sense of time (92). What's even more interesting is that the falling of the clock causes Daisy to spontaneously say, "We haven't met for many years," to which Gatsby immediately responds, "Five years next November," and the "automatic quality" of Gatsby's answer quiets them for "at least another minute," adding the recurring theme of tension to the chapter (92). The way in which Daisy and Gatsby express the long period of time in which they haven't seen each other seems to display their awareness of how time seems to be rushing by.
ReplyDeleteI'm beginning to really see the signifance of T.S. Eliot's poem and how it applies to The Great Gatsby. It seems like one of the central arguments in the novel is how passing by opportunities and letting time pass without any change in one's life will create an open, waiting grave, and Daisy and Gatsby, who are two characters that both seem to be unhappy with their lives, managed to emphasize this point in the chapter.
I would like to touch upon the idea of history and memory that is shown in this chapter. I feel that this chapter was showing the significance of the past in its actuality in relationship to our memory of the past. Each and every one of us has memories that are altered within our brain weather we know it or not. When we recall something there is absolutely no way in which it is remembered precisely how it truly went about happening. It may be that we change our memory to protect ourselves or someone else, make something seem better or worse to ourselves, or convince ourselves of something. For instance i think this is shown when Nick thinks to himself, "there must have been moments even that afternoon when Daisy tumbled short of his dreams- not through her own fault but because of the colossal vitality of his illusion."(Fitzgerald, 101). This shows clearly that sometimes we edit a memory of the past which holds reality to higher standards. Gatsby's memory of Daisy from five years in the past has been recounted and built up in Gatsby's mind for those long five years which must have changed his perception of her somewhat making her real self different from the way he remembers her. Clearly memory is important because it interferes with or at least impacts the way we see things in the future as our memories shift and change over time and experience.
ReplyDeletewow i wrote weather..i mean whether*****
ReplyDeleteMs PArrish, Luke and I have a question, should we still post?
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ReplyDeleteAnna, I really liked your post because it reminded me of the Joan Didon essay we read over the summer (I'm weird?), when you said,
ReplyDelete"Each and every one of us has memories that are altered within our brain weather we know it or not. When we recall something there is absolutely no way in which it is remembered precisely how it truly went about happening. It may be that we change our memory to protect ourselves or someone else, make something seem better or worse to ourselves, or convince ourselves of something."
That me think of "On Keeping A Notebook" (probably just because I love that essay so much...) in Didion's statement, "the common denominator of all we see is always, transparently, shamelessly, the implacable ‘I’”. What I took from that essay was just what you talked about, personal memory and interpretation of events/experience when juxtaposed with reality, the illusion of time and memory, and as you pointed out, how history and memory plays a big role in this chapter.
I think the Green Light and the symbolism of that light is where Fitzgerald most incorporates the notions of a paradox/tension/conflict between time, memory and history and their effect on the characters and on the story. I think we discussed in class or someone in the blog (can't remember) about how Nick's past, (the war, the purpose of him coming to West Egg versus Daisy and Tom's purpose) isn't really in synch with everyone around him. When we met Gatsby, and Gatsby's nature "old sport", his demeanor resonated with Nick I think, and Gatsby says he recognizes Nick from the war, and immediately the two characters have something in common (if Gatsby is telling the truth, I'm still skeptical). We also talked about how both Gatsby and Nick seem to be lonely, and have this empty quality to them, even in crowded parties. And in that first scene about the green light at the end of chapter one, Gatsby is "trembling" looking at the light that is "minute and far away, that might have been the end of a dock". Nick observes Gatsby and this light, and when he looks up Gatsby is gone, and Nick is "alone again in the unquiet darkness" (26).
ReplyDeleteI think the green light, in a way, represents a past, what is stored up in a man's "ghostly heart", the light is a place where "no amount of fire or freshness" can relieve whatever is stored there (101). To be more specific, a couple chapters ago we learned from Jordan that supposedly the reason Gatsby lived where he did was so that he could see Daisy's house across the harbor, the green light comes from her house, and he hopes one day she'll come in on one of the parties. As Kaare pointed out, both Gatsby and Daisy seem to be character's unhappy with their lives, and both have distorted past's, or Fitzgerald doesn't render a clear picture of their past- We know that Daisy was crying before her wedding because of something to do with Gatsby but we don't know what, and we know about Gatsby and his past but we still aren't sure if he's telling the truth ( Shown in this chapter: "I thought you inherited your money', 'I did old sport,' he said automatically, 'but I lost most of it in the big panic-the panic of the war'" 95). In this chapter, the quote about the green light has to do with the function of time and history and memory in Fitzgerald’s novel:
“’If it wasn’t for the mist we could see your home across the bay’, said Gatsby. ‘You always have a green light that burns all night at the end of your dock’. Daisy put her arm through his [Gatsby’s] abruptly but he seemed absorbed in what he had just said. Possibly it had occurred to him that the colossal significance of that light had now vanished forever. Compared to the great distance that had separated him from Daisy it had seemed very near to her, almost touching her. It had seemed as close as a star to the moon. Now it was again a light on a dock. His count of enchanted objects had diminished by one” (98)
(continuation...Wouldn't let me post more)
ReplyDeleteThat goes with the quote Anna used, "the colossal vitality of his [Gatsby's] illusion" (101) because all of the descriptions of Gatsby and Daisy throughout the chapter lend both characters to be struck by the reality of encountering each other again after such a long elapse of time. “The colossal significance of that light had now vanished forever”, meaning that the pure memory held of Daisy is no longer significant as it was previous to this chapter. The dream world- the world of looking across the harbor at the green light and only dreaming of Daisy- has shattered. Now Daisy has entered Gatsby’s reality. She is no longer likened to the green light, and we can no longer see the green light, because it is representative of the illusion of memory, the faint memory’s of Daisy that were inevitably embellished/ distorted as time passed ("there must have been moments even that afternoon when Daisy tumbled short of his dreams- not through her own fault but because of the colossal vitality of his illusion. It had gone beyond her, beyond everything. He had thrown himself into it with a creative passion, adding to it all the time, decking it out with every bright feather that drifted his way” 101) that have now been overcome by the reality of Daisy’s actual presence. Gatsby “seemed absorbed in what he just said”, because, in my thinking, he’s realizing “the colossal vitality of his illusion” through the green light in that moment. In coming to grips with, or juxtaposing reality with memory/ history with Daisy and also his memories of Daisy and how they have gone “beyond her, beyond everything”, and finally the passage of time and how it’s contributed to his encounter with Daisy in this chapter, - all of this together has illuminated what he has stored up in his “ghostly heart” and how it has effected his life.
It is funny, but until I read the blog question, I did not even pick up on half of the time elements in this chapter. I mean, of course I noticed the breaking clock, but aside from that I had to go back in and re-read most of the chapter. After doing this, I noticed just how much I had missed, which actually turned out to be a lot.
ReplyDeleteFirst and foremost, I feel that its necessary to say that I agree that the time in this novel does seem to be really erratic and unbalanced. I didn’t notice it until now, but Kaare is completely right in that the change of time differs completely from chapter to chapter. This being said, I did have some different thoughts on the “almost shattering” of the clock in chapter 5. Could it be that instead of showing the decreasing sense of time amongst Gatsby and Daisy, it actually stopped time altogether? I see their following conversation as being more of a reminiscent thing then what Kaare suggested. To me, this is heightened by the sentence after their conversation, which reads, “The automatic quality of Gatsby’s answer set us all back at least another minute” (Fitzgerald, 92). To me this notion of “setting back” is a synonym for memories, and also connects back to the original “shattering of the clock”.
And another quote that goes with the reason why Gatsby seems "absorbed in what he just said", and the green light being hidden by a mist, is this: On page 101 Nick observes, "I think that voice held him [Gatsby] most with its fluctuating, feverish warmth because it couldn't be over-dreamed- that voice was a deathless song".
ReplyDeleteDaisy's voice cannot be "over-dreamed" in the "colossal vitality" of Gatsby's illusion after so many years because she is finally real to him. The notion of her voice being a "deathless song" could be like the green light, an array of memories and of the past is overshadowed, and that spurs a sort of death within Gatsby as he realizes that the green light has become hidden, and will never hold the same meaning again.
Also, going back to the notion of Gatsby and Nick being lonely characters amidst settings where we wouldn't expect them to feel that way, there is a part on page 99, "I tried to go then, but they wouldn't hear of it; perhaps my presence made them feel more satisfactorily alone". That quote sort of struck me funny. I know it relates to Daisy and Nick and Gatsby as characters (or rather I think it relates) but I don't know where to start or what to make of it. Did anyone think anything particular of that line?
I agree that one of the central arguments in the novel focuses on how people often let time pass by without any change which ultimately leads to their , and I would like to elaborate why Gatsby and other characters act this way. As Kaare mentioned, the passage of time is often erratic. In some instances Gatsby seems to be extremely aware of time, while in other instances, “the clock had smashed into pieces” signifying a distorted, or possibly no sense of time. I think this presents a paradox of time because Gatsby seems to be extremely aware of the time, but does grasp the concept that time is not everlasting. He sets an impossible goal to reach, which is being with Daisy. Yet, he does this purposely so he will always have a goal, or something to look forward to. Although he seems to love Daisy at times, Gatsby doesn’t truly want to be with her. Instead, his intentions are to bask in his loneliness and always think of how his life could be better if he could achieve his “impossible” goal. Therefore, there will always be an excuse for him to be unhappy. Sometimes, Daisy is even defined as falling short of Gatsby’s expectations. This is because when Gatsby is closer to achieving his dream, he finds a way to slow this progression. “…Daisy tumbled short of his dreams – not through her own fault but because of the colossal vitality of his illusion…no amount of fire or freshness can challenge what a man will store up in his ghostly heart…” (Fitzgerald 101). Gatsby does have a sense of time, but chooses not to utilize it or change for the better because he does not want to live a fulfilled life. “He had passed visibly through two states and was entering upon a third. After his embarrassment and unreasoning joy he was consumed with wonder at her presence. He had been full of the idea so long, dreamed right through to the end, inconceivable pitch of intensity. Now, in the reaction, he was running down like an overwound clock” (97).
ReplyDeleteAnother paradox presented due to Gatsby’s sense of time is the coexistence of childish behaviors and the behavior of an experienced man. Nick calls Gatsby’s behavior towards Daisy childish. “‘You’re acting like a little boy,’ I broke out impatiently. ‘Not only that, but you’re rude. Daisy’s sitting in there all alone’” (93). Earlier in the book, Nick had seen a picture of Gatsby, and claimed that he looked younger, but not much younger, which possibly claims he never was never truly young. As he grows older, he is possibly becoming more childish because he will not give in to settling down. If he always has a dream just out of reach there is something to live for, but if he did achieve his goal, his life from then on would be stagnant.
I would like to open a discourse on the concept of history as brought up by Anna. Her discussion reminded me of a quote from Ambrose Bierce, namely that history is "an account mostly false, of events mostly unimportant, which are brought about by rulers mostly knaves, and soldiers mostly fools." This quote perfectly epitomizes the occurrences within the Great Gatsby, and the utterances of its narrator.
ReplyDeleteFirst off, history has never been about the truth. Never once have the events of our world, or any world for that matter, been recorded in full and without bias. Consciously or not, the historian plays God. It is HIS STORY how we are portrayed. This is blatantly obvious throughout the Great Gatsby. Our view of the characters Nick interacts with is not ours alone, for Nick shapes our opinions with his distortion of the truth, of factuality. After all, Nick has obliterated the fourth wall in making us completely aware of his role in writing this story. Sure, it seems obvious that Daisy and Gatsby are unhappy with their lives, as Kaare pointed out and supported, but is that really obvious. Couldn't Nick have just wisped over the reality of their lives and zoomed in on the low points, blowing those out of proportion to their significance until they are all we see. Instead of taking what Nick says at face value, shouldn't we consider how the story would be told from Daisy's, from Gatsby's perspective.
Going back to the quote I mentioned, it is important to note how rulers are referenced, that being as knaves. For those who don't know, a knave is a cunning, untrustworthy man. Can we really trust the narrator? After all, he is just human and has interests of his own. It is in his self interest to make us like and believe him. But how can we do that when he skips over vast tracts of time. How are we supposed to know what goes on during the lapses in narration. Can our inferences (elevator scene...) be correct, or are they just dirty extrapolations based on corrupt or nonexistent data.
ReplyDeleteI guess what I am trying to ask, is the history we read the correct one? Are the events dog-eared as important just that, or the ravings of a disillusioned mind? Will we follow the lead of a corrupt king like fools? Are we unquestioning soldiers?
Greg: "I mean, of course I noticed the breaking clock, but aside from that I had to go back in and re-read most of the chapter. After doing this, I noticed just how much I had missed, which actually turned out to be a lot." YES! ... and I think your rereading of the chapter brings something really valuable into the conversation. While, as you say, Kaare is right that time is out of synch, it is more than out of synch, it is receeding or stopped.
ReplyDeleteThis brings me to Grace's mention of the green light. I think it DOES represent the past, but it also represents the future in some ways... it represents an impossible merging of the past and the future (for this reason, Gatsby cannot see the light when his past--Daisy--is in fact in the present). We can't see the green light when time stops and the past reemerges (the mist descends) yet the green light is dependent on past hopes/dreams and the tantalizing inability for those dreams to be fulfilled.
Grace, i immediately thought of Joan Didions essay when reading Anna's essay too! Ok, sorry just thought i would say that...
ReplyDeletenow i'm going to post my actual blog.
Ms. Parrish, when you said that time was not just out of synch but stopped, i connected this to the "broken clock". But i did not connect it to the present time being haulted as much as the past being stopped, or broken. When Nick said "It's an old clock", that it must have been from previous years far in the past, that the represented the past relationship of Daisy and Gatsby (92). This was followed by Nicks thoughts of "I think we all believed for a moment that it had smashed in pieces on the floor", bringing us into the idea that they had believed the past to be "broken" or ended. The falling of the clock seems to be the reason for Daisy to bring up the long time in which she and Gatsby have not been in contact,(since the topic comes up directly following the clock isident) and Nick previously says that "Luckily the clock took this moment to tilt dangerously" expressing the direct connections of the clock/past(92).
ReplyDeleteIdk if this has any connection, but possibly when Gatsby says "Im sorry about the clock" he is also apologizing for his past with Daisy (92)? Or the ending of their past? (Although this quote is directed at Nick not Daisy..but I'm not sure just a thought..)
Another connection i made to the clock representing the past is when the clock falls Gatsby "caught it with trembling fingers" similarly to when Gatsby looked at the green light,(coming from Daisy's dock and representing their past)trembling in the beginning of the book as well.
I'm sorry that was really bad...but i had my post and then it was deleted...and i have issues and couldnt remember all of the points I had made ahh haha.
Well. I said on Saturday I have no time to do it on Sunday. And I don't. So I apologize. I thought this was going to be written Saturday afternoon... and Sunday did not work out so that I could really seriously write anything. So I have like two minutes to write this and I don't even have time to read the other comments. So I'm sorry if this is really bad/short/repetitive/no textual evidence.
ReplyDeleteThe time in this chapter moves very slowly compared to other chapters which will include events that are weeks apart. Instead, this chapter includes just days. The slow-down of time that we encounter every time we are in Gatsby’s presence creates tension within the novel. As readers we see a man who is struggling to pass the time away while he waits for his one love, but as a result every moment is slowed down and experienced. Every minor detail seems important, and while Gatsby would rather rush to the time when they can be together, time seems to drag on. However, when Gatsby finally gets nervous that he is finally seeing Daisy once again, time moves quickly when Gatsby would rather it slow down. When ___ offers to schedule their meeting the “day after tomorrow” Gastby “considered it for a moment. Then with reluctance. “I want to get the grass cut” he said.” (87) The time jump, despite Gatsby’s reluctance is demonstrated with the transition of two sentences. “So I don’t know whether or not Gatsby went to Coney Island or for how many hours he “glanced into rooms” while his house blazed gaudily on. I called up Daisy from the office next morning and invited her to come to tea” (88). This huge jump from night to the next day demonstrates the time leap that Gatsby did not want to happen.
Gatsby makes several references to time, including “Nobody’s coming to tea. It’s too late!” He looked at his watch as if there was some pressing demand on his time elsewhere. “I can’t wait all day.” “Don’t be silly; it’s just two minutes to four” (90) and “His head leaned back so far that it rested against the face of a defunct mantelpiece clock and from this position his distraught eyes stared down at Daisy who was sitting frightened but graceful on the edge of a stiff chair… Luckily the clock took this moment to tilt dangerously at the pressure of his head, whereupon he turned and caught it with trembling fingers and set it back in place.” (91) Both instances suggest the “running out of time” panic.
ReplyDeleteWhat is interesting is that usually people look at time as a sense of structure. However, The Great Gatsby has shown otherwise.
AH. I have to go. Thanks for listening to ideas I didn’t really have time to develop. So again. Sorry.
I want to kind of add on to what Taylor was saying about Nick's recall of the events we are reading about being biased. It is really interesting when thinking about Fitzgerald's utilization of time to create tension not only as Fitzgerald's writing technique, but also as a reflection of Nick's erratic sense of time. Nick's awareness of numerical time is used to create/illustrate tension during a scene while the lack of numerical time creates resolution. Before daisy arrives, Nick references the numerical time in several instances: "At eleven o'clock a man in a raincoat dragging a lawn- mower tapped at my front door...(88) The flowers were unnecessary, for at two o'clock a greenhouse arrived from Gatsby's... (89) 'One of the papers said they thought the rain would stop about four'...(89) The rain cooled half past three to a damp mist through which occasional thin drops swam like dew. (89) 'I can't wait all day.' 'Don't be silly; it's just two minutes to four."(90) All these references to time are within just a few pages and create tension by showing that Nick is not foccosed on what is going on, but is focused more on the exact amount of time everything is taking to happen. Nick makes hours seem like days in just a few pages. However, then the clock breaks and numerical time (and a rational sense of time) is lost for the rest of the chapter. It is no coincidence that after the clock breaking (and a few more tense moments, ill admit) things become significantly more relaxed. Nick leaves Gatsby and Daisy alone to go out the yard. After Nick considers his and Gatsby's yards for sometime, he says he goes in after a "half an hour". This is the first instance during the day where we see Nick measure time in relation to nothing. He does not say that it was four thirty or give any specific time. Nick gives us a measurement of time that is based purely off what felt like "half an hour". Over the next couple of pages we see the three having a very good time without any references to the time whatsoever. Time is only re-introduced during a moment of tension: "'It's the funniest thing, old sport,' he said hilariously. 'I can't-- when I try to--' He had passed visibly through two states and was entering upon a third. After his embarrassment and his unreasoning joy he was consumed with wonder at her presence."(97) Directly after this we see time: "Recovering himself in a minute he opened for us two hulking patent cabinets which held his massed suits and dressing gowns and ties..." (97). For the entire rest of the chapter we do not see time measured in small increments.
ReplyDeleteNick's perceptions of time when portrayed numerically act to create tension in a scene and Nick's perceptions of time when portrayed irrationally convey what Nick felt like was a "half an hour" or "a minute" can act to create tension or resolution based on Nick's interpretation of the scene.
ReplyDeletei just realized there is another reference to time measured in small increments that i missed: "He went out of the room calling 'Ewing!' and returned in a few minutes accompanied by an embarrassed, slightly worn young man..." (99).
ReplyDeleteSo i take back my statement that "for the entire rest of the chapter we do not see time measured in small increments." I stand by my main idea though.